Bavaria CTO vs P-Used

[youpiao]

In the Scott catalogue, for Bavaria, there is a note that states, and I quote,

Here is a Scott nr 85 I have


Does this cancel look "perfectly clear?" It doesn't, to me (though, I do think it is "very clear"). How-some-ever, looking at listings on HipStamp, it appears at least 90% of the stamps have postal cancels, which would then beg the question, "why are postally used cancels valued at twice the CV for CTO "used?"

Am I just being semantically picky about Scott's "perfectly clear" terminology? Is mine a CTO?

[khj]

(EDIT: There is a note in Michel that stamps there is no way to distinguish with certainty between accounting/postal cancels. I take that to mean the canceling devices used for accounting cancels were the same type/ink used for postal cancels.)

This is a tough call. The normal quick glance test of oil-based ink isn't really useful here, since the accounting cancels were done in same time period as the genuine postally used cancels (i.e., used the same ink).

Is there a way to quickly tell from the type of circle/date cancel? Don't know, but if anyone does, please chime in.

I defer to PostmasterGS for a better reply. But this is my take:

-- very "clear" cancels are almost always accounting cancels (do not consider "smudginess" because that happens in accounting cancels as well); by clear, I mean most parts of the cancel that is on the stamp is readable without major effort
-- multiple separate cancels are very likely accounting cancels
-- cancels with significant parts unreadable/missing are likely postal cancels (postal cancels I see are typically very unevenly/poorly inked or have a lot of "wear"/"weakness, so you see a "stretching"/"fading away" of some parts)
-- best way to feel confident of a postally used example is to have an example showing a "slogan" cancel
-- postally used stamps will look postally used, but accounting cancels will look like the stamp was never stuck to an envelope that went through the mailstream (don't look at the perfs, but flip the stamp over and look at the back of the stamp -- if the back of the stamp looks smooth/pristine, it probably never went through the mailstream; postally used stamps will typically show some texture/wear; examine some common postally used German area stamps of that time period to get a better understanding of what I mean)
-- it helps a lot once you've seen a genuine postally used cancel, so on cover examples (not on paper, but on cover) are a good point for initial study if only considering cancel "appearance"

The hard part is feeling confident about a postally used cancel that is "clear" -- yeah, they do exist.

I'll see if I can dig out my Bavaria 1911 album page. I did not double check my ID of stamp/cancel on these, so there might be a mistake or two. But if I remember correctly, at least 3/4 of the cancelled stamps on that page should have been genuine postally used. If I can find it, I'll scan/post it here.

Again, I don't know how accurate my take is. Just my non-expert opinion.

[khj]

Your stamp, from the face, is likely accounting cancel but can be considered close enough to borderline to warrant extra examination. Flip the stamp over and check the texture on the back -- does it look "used"? If you aren't sure, I toss it in the accounting cancel bin unless I have something else to change my mind.

[youpiao]

Next question:
In that same series (Scott Nr 77-91) there is a note from Scott saying, “All values exist in two types, except Nr 84A.” But there are no Type I and Type II illustrations, and no other indication of what “type” refers to - perf/imperf, wmk horiz/vert, pica/elite?
Sometimes I just want to throw my Scotts in the fireplace, but I don’t have one anymore (it burned up/down).

[khj]

Are you sitting down (maybe even lying down is better) -- there are actually 3 types. Scott completely ignores the Type III for the 3,5,10pf values.

If you want to get deep into Germany, getting the 2-volume Michel Deutschland-Spezial is a must.

The key is to look at the dates. For example, in the under 1M values, there will be differences in the 3 types for the "Æ" or the "1" in "12 MÆRZ 1911".

I'll try to post snippets from the catalog, or from my Bavaria album pages if I can find them.

[youpiao]

You know what’s almost as bad as buying stamps and then forgetting you have them? Buying a Michel Deutschland Spezial 2015 on disc and forgetting you have it.

What’s amazing is that I was able to find it with a minimal amount of searching. So, khj, unless you would just like to post those “Type” images for everyone else’s benefit, no need to post them for me.

[khj]

I just pulled some stamps from a batch. I guess they can go into my Lindner "eventually". I didn't have any Type III (May1911 printing) in that batch to show.



IMPORTANT: open the above image in a new tab and then click to enlarge -- that will show the full resolution of the 600dpi scan

This is sort of a combo showing Types I & II as well as Accounting/Postal use.

Left column is all Type I (Mar1911 printing). Right column is all Type II (Oct1911 printing)

First row is the 60pf, which only exists in Type II. This should always serve as your reference in determining Types for the <1M values. Here, I show an accounting cancel (left), where you can see clear postmark. If you look at the back, it's very pristine. So I am confident this is a sure accounting cancel usage.

The 60pf stamp at right shows postal usage. The cancel is clearly weak and uneven in areas. If you were able to examine the back, you would see wrinkles/roughness, indicative of postal use. In fact, if you look at the right margin of the stamp in the pic, you can actually see some wrinkles even from the front! This stamp has the clear characteristics of postal usage on both front/back. So I am confident this is a genuine postally used stamp.

I have to run, and will edit this section later tonight. But I have marked in orange ovals the areas of interest. In addition, I have marked in green arrows and orange circles some specific checkpoints. I'll write up a text later...

[youpiao]

This one I'm not sure of the Type. The middle bar of the E is longer than is shown for Type I, but shorter than Type II. To me, he R appears to match the Type III the closest.

[khj]

Congrats. You have the more difficult to find Type III for the 10pf.

The 9Aug1911 postmark also indicates it cannot be Type II, as the print run for Type II was in Oct2011.

Appears to be accounting usage, based on clarity of postmark and freshness (disregard toning/discoloration) of paper.

[youpiao]

Is the pale green paper normal for this Type III?

[khj]

All 3 types were printed on toned paper for 5pf. Michel doesn't really go into further detail regarding minor shade differences in the paper color.

Also, each of the 3 types were different print runs, even though all done in same year. It would not surprise me that each print run used a different batch of paper, and that there would be noticeable variations in the shade.

[khj]

OK, finally able to work on the write-ups. Most of the pf values for the set come in 3 types:

Type I [10Mar1911] -- all except 60pf
Type III [May1911] -- only 3,5,10pf values
Type II [Oct1911] -- all values, 60pf exists only as Type II


I have cut and stacked the 3 types in chronological order of printings (Types I, III, and II, respectively), to better show the changes.

Type I: date lettering is overall thin; top loop of R is noticeably small; middle bar of E is short or very weak
Type III: date lettering is thicker; top loop of R is larger; middle bar of E is strong but only about halfway
Type II: same as Type II, except middle bar of E is now even with top/bottom bars of E

[khj]

The mark values only come in Type I and Type II (same issue dates as for pf values above). All the mark values exist in the 2 types. The 2 types can be distinguished by looking at the top left, or the bottom right sides of the stamp.



Top Left
Type I: break in dividing line at green arrow; 1911 thinner with weak serifs
Type II: dividing line continuous at green arrow; 1911 thicker and larger, with stronger serifs (especially at the foot of the 1)

Bottom Right
Type I: no line of color between base of the left leg of the "N" and the white border
Type II: line of color for the tablet border at the base of the left leg of the "N"

[youpiao]

Very good, k. Thanks.